Spencer Platt / Getty Images file
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, Camden, N.J., is the most impoverished city in the United States
By Matthew DeLuca, Staff Writer, NBC News
Camden was not always America’s poorest, most crime-ridden city, with scores of open-air drug markets driving children indoors and property values to bedrock lows. Yet when the New Jersey city’s collapse came, it was stark and complete. Civic mismanagement, soaring crime rates, and the flight of business all contributed to Camden’s precipitous decline, the city a victim of industrial forces that shaped the 20th century and left residents stranded. Surrounded by affluent suburbs, Camden shows an ugly face of America that many would rather ignore.
How bad is the crime problem?
Camden had the highest crime rate of any city in the country in 2011, according to a review of FBI data by CQ Press. It’s not just the number, but the desperation and gruesomeness of the crimes that is startling. A mother who decapitated her 2-year-old son and a man who killed a 6-year-old boy accounted for but two of the city’s record number of murders in 2012. At the same time, the drug problem has continued to grow, with an estimated 175 open-air drug markets scattered across the crumbling city. Now, officials are planning to disband the more than 140-year-old police force and replace it with county cops, due to arrive in April. There were nearly 70 murders in the city in 2012, almost one for every 1,000 people.
How poor are the people?
Among the nation’s poorest, according to 2011 census data, with 42.5 percent of the city’s 77,000 residents thought to be living below the poverty line. The city's median household income was $21,191, lowest among the cities surveyed by the U.S. Census. And this is in one of the nation’s richest states. Children in Camden were far more likely than children in the surrounding county or state to live in poverty according to a 2007 report by the Legal Services of New Jersey.
What about education?
A set of charter schools have made some inroads in the city, but the problems for most students remain dire. The graduation rate for Camden high school students was just 49 percent in 2012, according to the state Department of Education. The problem isn't even money, as Camden spent $19,204 per student in the 2011-12 school year, according to the state education department’s Education Funding Report. However, only 1.4 percent of the city’s students met the state’s College-Readiness Benchmark, the report noted.
Compounding the problem is that plenty of children aren’t getting basic nutrition before showing up in the classroom, said Michael Moynihan, president at the United Way of Camden County. “If kids don’t eat breakfast, they can’t learn,” Moynihan said. A pilot breakfast program at six schools started by the United Way shot up to include 84 percent of eligible students, and may be expanded to the rest of the city’s 26 schools.
In Camden, N.J., criminals and drug deals operate in the open, and the police department is understaffed. But some residents are working hard to get their city back on track. NBC's Brian Williams reports.
Where did business go?
Once an industrial boomtown, Camden fell victim to the same post-World War II forces that shuttered factories and ravaged cities like Detroit and neighboring Philadelphia. Without other industries to fall back on, the city has never recovered from the economic blow. “Camden was particularly vulnerable,” said Paul Jargowsky, director of the Center for Urban Research and Education at Rutgers University. “There really was nothing else other than Campbell Soup and the shipyards and RCA Victor.”
What have politicians done?
In the cases of at least three mayors in the last 30 years, the most noteworthy thing politicians have done is go to jail. The scandalous streak began with Angelo Errichetti, a son of the city and former Camden high school footballer who was caught up in the government’s Abscam probe – an FBI sting that targeted public corruption – and convicted of bribery in 1983. Arnold Webster served as mayor from 1994 to 1997 before pleading guilty to fraud charges in 1998. Webster’s successor, Milton Milan, was sentenced to more than seven years in federal prison in 2001 on bribery, money laundering, and racketeering charges.
Can the city recover?
Much of the development that has occurred in recent years has grown up around the healthcare and education industries, including the city’s Rutgers campus and Cooper University Hospital. “There are some pockets of real progress and there are some very visible neighborhood transformations that have occurred,” Moynihan said. “There are other neighborhoods that still have whole blocks of boarded up or long-vacant houses that serve as places for squatters, for drug users, for all sorts of risky behaviors.”
While the city’s population has suffered over the last two decades, it may be the most stubborn residents that drag it back, Jargowsky said. “I think a lot of people are very committed to seeing people come back,” he said. “Among my students who live in the city, they’re very committed to wanting the city to have a renaissance.”
Related:
'By the grace of God': How workers survive on $7.25 per hour
Poverty in America: A problem hidden 'In Plain Sight'
Share your story with us at InPlainSight@nbcuni.com
This story was originally published on Thu Mar 7, 2013 5:04 PM EST
Leave a Comment:
No respect for education, no respect within families, no respect in earning one's own way, people on the take including cops and politicians. It's all I,I,me,me mine.
No respect for others and no self respect and you get Camden, NJ.
"...were nearly 70 murders in the city in 2012, almost one for every 1,000 people."
On a positive note, 99.9% can say, "It's not my problem."
Would I be wrong to say the majority of Camden's citizens, perhaps the vast majority all claim to be Christians?
Perhaps as high as over 90%?
Along with that kindergarten breakfast, our public schools would do well to focus the curricula on critical thinking and empathy RIGHT NOW for parents and children. It will help them access a wider range of tools for their life-skills toolbox.
Churches have failed. They do little more than create class division and anger. And that's not even mentioning the fact that Churches aren't evidence-based institutions. Expecting a useful 21st century skillset from a Church is like taking a sugar pill for AIDS. It's time We The People offer our youngest citizens opportunities like Camp Quest, etc.
Just a thought. I know this is complex. But I'm unaware of any community falling into ruin because the citizens were too reasonable or too empathetic.
What are you a total idiot. Whether a place has religion or not does not make a difference in if it is successful. Some of the poorest places on earth live in harmony and are Christian. The Communists had a massive society and I'll bet you'd enjoy being one but it failed big time. Over 90% of the citizens have also been in the public schools - that may be the real cause.
Poverty begets a lack of self-respect. A lack of self-respect begets a loss of respect for others.
Camden is like a microcosm of what's happening in our country as a whole. Manufacturing leaves, once-middle-class folks become impoverished, poverty breeds crime and violence.
Look for this same cycle coming to a city/town/region near you. Growing wealth inequality in the US (the largest in the industrialized world) has that effect on communities...
But do they have Air Jordans??
welfare city's are spreading throughout the country, low education levels, family's with mother only,no jobs(no one will work for a minimum wage), and inner-city gangs roaming the street at all hours of day and night.
@Atheist:
Would I be wrong to say the majority of Camden's citizens, perhaps the vast majority all claim to be Christians?
Perhaps as high as over 90%?
Along with that kindergarten breakfast, our public schools would do well to focus the curricula on critical thinking and empathy RIGHT NOW for parents and children. It will help them access a wider range of tools for their life-skills toolbox.
Churches have failed. They do little more than create class division and anger. And that's not even mentioning the fact that Churches aren't evidence-based institutions. Expecting a useful 21st century skillset from a Church is like taking a sugar pill for AIDS. It's time We The People offer our youngest citizens opportunities like Camp Quest, etc.
Just a thought. I know this is complex. But I'm unaware of any community falling into ruin because the citizens were too reasonable or too empathetic.
I fixed a few typos for you:
Would I be wrong to say the majority of Camden's citizens, perhaps the vast majority all claim to be Democrats?
Perhaps as high as over 90%?
Along with that kindergarten breakfast, our public schools would do well to focus the curricula on critical thinking and English RIGHT NOW for parents and children. It will help them access a wider range of tools for their life-skills toolbox.
Unions have failed. They do little more than create class division and anger. And that's not even mentioning the fact that Uninos aren't weath-creating institutions. Expecting a day's work from a Union employee is like taking a sugar pill for AIDS. It's time We The People offer our youngest citizens opportunities like jobs that they don't have to know somebody to get and then pay DUES to.
Just a thought. I know this is complex. But I'm unaware of any community falling into ruin because the citizens were too smart or too hard working.
Happy to provide you with a template but do you normally take things without asking?
That's great Mark!!!
Tom Lehrer sang a song about plagiarism.
@Atheist: I didn't take anything, I provided you with free proofreading and fact checking. Normally I don't give my work away for free, but in this case I saw it as a public service.
Should you want to pay your fair share, I accept cash, bank checks, and PayPal.
@recyclecongress: Thanks!
Fair enough. A+ for creativity.
Camden (and Detroit) is a result of the type of people who live there. Glorify repulsive rap music and drugs, have 7 kids each with different fathers, ignore your schooling, rely on welfare for everything, and show zero respect for the people who are trying to protect you from your other hoodlum neighbors, and that is what you get. Decent people aren't going to stand for that and will move out of the area, leaving you to the minority's paradise that you've created. In a hellhole? Quit spending your day trying to out-badass each other and stop allowing this to happen. But you won't.
@Atheist: While we clearly don't agree I'm overjoyed to see civility on the Vine. Thank you and enjoy the weekend!
I was thinking the same thing, except for poster atelier @#1.3. He starts off his morning with "What are you, a total idiot?" (Punctuation corrected.) Thing is, people who have nothing of any value to contribute to a conversation resort to vulgar language because of their dearth of vocabulary otherwise. (Same with comment #2.1.)
Atheist, while there is no shortage of Christians who do not exhibit Christian behavior on a day-to-day basis, I would ask that you take another look at Christ's teachings, they basically mirror what you say is lacking in our schools. I also fail to see how churches create class envy along with the other negative perceptions you have of Christian Churches. You may be surprised to know that Christians do not fear science, in fact we embrace it. I have yet to see a single scientific discovery that rules out the presence of GOD. Have you actually studied Christianity or are you just surmising what you think Christianity is? Have a great day and God bless you.
hardtostarboard,
Yes, I am a former Catholic. I now, of course, completely reject faith and happily accept the term apostate. :) I lose about as much sleep at night worring about Hell as you do thinking about the eternal punishment Allah doles out to infidels.
There's nothing wrong with cherry picking the better bits of the bible. You do know that Jesus was cool with slavery though, right? That's certainly immoral. Here's the thing hardtostarboard, Christianity does not hold the copyright on morality. Not by a long shot! Of course the Vatican does hold that they are the moral arbiters for all humans now and forever, but you don't believe that either, right?
We don't look back 2,000 years to find the best medicine to use today. Likewise it's probably not the best idea to look for the best morals developed by cultures who buried children in post holes as a way to protect buildings from demons.
As far as your claim about science, you misunderstand what the scientific method is. Completely. In a nutshell, science works with probability and plausibility not proofs (mathematics works with axiomatic proofs as do theological tautologies). Saying science can't rule out the presence of Yahweh (I assume you mean THAT god) sets your logic up for this whopper: Science also can't disprove there is a purple dragon in my garage (I strongly encourage you to read Carl Sagan's position on purple dragons).
Thanks for the kind sentiment rather than a literal "blessing" considering there is no evidence that blessings do anything other than convey a cultural nicety.
Camden was killed by rampant violent crime, which caused white flight to the suburbs, which further intensified violent crime. But we can't say that because its not politically correct. So, alternative spurious theories have to be concocted that are more politically correct.
hardto
What! That is not how science works....science would look for evidence to support a theory that there is a god. Religion is about faith, the evidence of things not seen but hoped for.
While it is tragic about the crime statistics in Camden, New Jersey it is NOT the poorest city in America.
There are entire counties in our country where the poverty is MUCH HIGHER and MUCH WORSE than Camden, New Jersey.
For example, in Starr County (Texas) ....
"The per capita income for the county is $7,069. About 47.40% of families and 50.90% of the population were below the poverty line, including 59.40% of those under age 18 and 43.30% of those age 65 or over." (Source: Wikipedia)
There's going to be more of this. This is a result of competition from global capitalism.
Your are an idiot.
uh...
and besides, Ta-deu is mostly correct. Succumb to globalization, ship all your best paying jobs (those capable of supporting a middle class lifestyle) to foreign nations to pay your workers a dollar a day, ship the product back at a huge mark up (dramatically enriching the ownership class in the process, while siphoning wealth from the bottom), and then wonder why structural unemployment remains high and poverty grows...
Camden is a result of GREEDY manufacturers sending jobs overseas. And of course the Minorities. Once minorities become the Majority, crime is the result. Look all over the country and you will see that it is true. Can't deny or hide your head in the sand on this one. Fact is fact. Believe it not, like it or not.
Ta-deu is bang on.
Tarzan,
It is poverty that causes despair, which leads to despiration, which leads to crime. It happens in every poverty striken area. So keep your racist views out of this discussion.
Tarzan7,
Once a minorities become the Majority, they are no longer the minority. They are the majority. What happens then depends on a whole bunch of things.
What Tarzan is saying is that once he eventually becomes a minority, he will go to a life of crime and blame it on the majority.
If this country was 90% black/hispanic and 10% white, the blacks/hispanics would still be minorities. If every white person left the USA, the country would turn into another Haiti overnight. You can throw money at poverty, but in the end, those who show zero respect for those who want to help will still be in poverty. Camden was once a thriving city with a white majority middle-class and when they saw the writing on the wall and left, blacks moved in and created the mess we have now.
^this is the truth.
^this is bull@!$%#.
yeah, the jobs left, and then so did the middle class folks.
After that the POOR moved in (or stayed there), they just so happened to be predominantly black.
And it's not as if this country has a prolonged history of racial prejudice, systemic racism, and ingrained socioeconomic inequalities, do we? People forget that the 1960's weren't that long ago...
Yes, a lazy, evil-minded, 'I don't wanna study, learn sh*t or work, m-fa where maw foodstamp' attitude does make for a hell hole of an existence.
Yes. So sad that this is happening in large part by being run by incompetent politicians and in many cases greedy unions. Detroit is next up....
Liberal government with a freebies-for-votes mentality, more leeches than producers, thugs running the streets and whites leaving in droves. Just like Detroit. We can thank liberal politicians and Obamaphone voters for the death of this and many other once thriving cities. Coming soon to the entire U.S. thanks to Obama and his supporters.
Absolutely! Colman Young and his racist rhetoric destroyed Detroit. I know because I live in Michigan and have seen what he did to Detroit. Now Obama is spewing the same class/race/sexist hate filled nonsense that liberals love. They always blame everyone else and never look in the mirror. For all you liberals out there, name ONE country or state where this liberal nonsense has worked! There is none. They are all going broke, and the quality of their citizens lives spiral downward.
Detroit has the same problem Camden has.
In Camdens case, RCA and Campbell's Soup left. In Detroit's case, it was Ford, Chrysler and GM.
Same story, same result.
But go ahead, keep blaming it on the "liberal boogeyman" du jour, who needs sound economic analysis and policy when we got good sound bites...
as if the Republicans aren't equally responsible for the embrace of globalization, outsourcing, and the extinction of American manufacturing jobs. Hell, they cheerlead this @!$%# while the Dems meekly go along.
Wow. Do you even realize that Camden was a dump long before Obama was in office. Of course you don't racists don't realize alot of things. Perhaps you would feel better if you just used the n-word, we know you want to, byut we also know you don't have the balls to admit that you don't like hime simply becuase he is black.
Don't be a victim - keep ignoring the facts. Deficits go up during republican admins and go down during democratic admins. Its a fact look it up, but we know you won't we know you will just sit there and be spoon fed what ever fox tells you. That what ignorant people with tiny minds do.
as if the Republicans aren't equally responsible for the embrace of globalization, outsourcing, and the extinction of American manufacturing jobs. Hell, they cheerlead this @!$%# while the Dems meekly go along.
I wouldn't say "meekly". NAFTA was wholly bipartisan:
The House of Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, 234-200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. NAFTA passed the Senate 61-38. Senate supporters were 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats. Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; it went into effect on January 1, 1994. H.W. Bush has ceremonially signed NAFTA on 17 September 1992, after seven years of negotiations betwee the three countries.
Then of course there was Clinton's U.S.-China Relations Act of 2000, which passed 83-15 in the Senate and 237-197 in the House. (At the time, the Senate was 50R/50D and the House was 221R/212D.)
Don't be a victim,
Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Canada for starters.
Funny..........deficits go up in republican administrations and go down in democratic administrations..........have you been living under a rock? Do you really think our deficit has gone down in the last four years?
Tell that to the ppl of camden, who have routinely voted Dem for years and continue to fall into the abyss. This article wont point out that all three mayors that went to jail were dems. It also wont point out that South Jersey dem bosses like Norcross have made a mint on the devalued land in Camden. Manuyfactoring leaving didnt help, but politics is what started the ball rolling in ernest.
And for a little background, Im a graduate and 3 year resident of Rutgers. It was worse in 2000 than it is now, but it is still terrible. Last year, residents of the City protested a possible tax increase averaging $10.00 a household to save City police officers. This is what they are dealing with.
um, it actually HAS gone down every year for the last four years.
2009 (Last Bush budget): $1.413T
2010 (First Obama budget): $1.293T
2011: $1.300T
2012: $1.089T
2013 (projected): $0.901T
Yep, I double checked, it's going down...
@DowningGrover:
Well, sort of.
1) There has not been a US budget since 2009. (Thank you, US Senate!) Obama's budgets have to date not garnered a single Senatorial vote.
2) You're not talking about the deficit going down. You're talking about size of deficit spending going down year over year. We're still spending ~1 TRILLION more per year than we have, as your post demonstrates. It *is* technically correct, but for the numbers we're talking about throwing deck chairs off of the Titanic.
3) The 2013 number depends on how the automatic spending cuts pan out. The CBO is talking $1.04 trillion for 2013, it could be 0.9, it could be 1.29 if emergency spending comes up (like for a natural disaster or something).
I was born in Camden in 1948 at Cooper University Hospital. My grandfather owned a small shipyard. I remember a beautiful and peaceful town that I visited often... after my family left for Miami, Florida in the early fifties....also a great middle classs town at that time. Glad I have nothing to do with either place anymore. Unfortunately, both towns suffer from a disparity in wealth distribution that have led to a rich-poor crime ridden environment...Miami had its beaches to save it...but not from crime...Camden was left with the Delaware River...not much...even Washington would think twice about crossing it today. But the real story of the demise of Camden is not discussed because our country is incapable of facing the real issues. Many small cities have gone though the shift in economic base that Camden did and aren't the murder capital of America. Don't expect Brian Williams to get down and dirty with the truth...BTW...where is Mr. Obama...don't expect him to go near Camden...
This is very true, however many other small cities striken by similar problems (Scranton comes to mind) aren't so close in proximity to a major metropolitan area that so easily allows for the influx of nefarious characters and the outflux of redeemable ones.
'A disparity in wealth distribution'.
Are. You. Serious.
Is that the new liberal doubleplusgood politspeak for POOR?
Do you advocate a more equitable distribution of wealth no based upon education and achievement?
Holy crap.
to some extent, a disparity in wealth is one of the major economic maladies afflicting this country and our economy today.
America has one of the worst wealth inequalities of any industrialized nation. This erodes bottom-level demand for every day goods and products, reduces the number of consumers in the economy, and craters any economy based on consumption (sound familiar?). Is it any wonder we're mired in a Great Recession we can't get out of?
Grover - I agree that the wealth disparity is a problem - but I think it's been done on purpose by corporations and the 1% (or higher).
And Americans, distracted and busy surviving, fall for it every time and will never take action.
Hence, our race to the bottom while corporate profits and CEO bonuses are at all time highs.
It's prosperity for the few, while the many argue about abortion and creationism and Kardashians and other non-issues and wake up to a country with no real economy beyond the service industry and 'discretionary spending'.
But, I suppose we'll all have to adapt to making $4 a day because 'it's a global marketplace' for jobs and manufacturing now.
I think we're just now starting to see the aggregated long-term effects of the last 30 years; the convergence of the lines on the graph.
When you open the government coffers, people will find a way to scam the system. When those in charge of the system are scamming it as well, Camden, Detroit, etc is what you get.
Witness Socialism at its finest. The money to pay for the programs has run out. The freeloaders and thieves have bled the system to death, far beyond its capacity to provide for the very people for which it was intended.
"Socialism", on its face, isn't a bad idea. The problem is human beings and their tendency to scam, cheat and steal at every opportunity.
Fix *THAT* and you fix the world.
Until then, watch as every major city goes this way.
$19,000 per student per year?
Yeah, there's no corruption THERE. No sirree.
Did you also know that ppl in surrounding municipalities in Camden County pay extra in water and sewer fees to subsidize Camden residents.
Or that although crime rates are so high there, your car insurance costs drastically less by living in the immediate area to camden than 20 minutes north.
Did you also know that the State paid the bills and ran the city since 2000.
Did you also know that most parts of Camden are more dangerous at 12 in the afternoon than most major cities at 3 in the am
Much as I can't stand Obama, I wouldn't go near Camden either.
Hey atheist at least the church is helping what are you and you folks doing to help uh oh yeah blaming the church LOL gt off your butt and help or shut up!
That's the thing. If nearly 100% of Camden's residents are people of faith, clearly faith isn't an answer to their challenges. It may be an "answer" to other things but it can't be claimed to be a solution this article addresses.
Their are countless evidence-based organizations to support. I suggest you consider them if you want the most good for your buck. Dropping a fiver in the Church's collection plate is not a wise investment if the goal is to get kids to undertand critical thinking and empathy. It's a great investment if your goal is to educate kids in delusional methods of grief-coping when their friends are gunned down or choking on vomit from drugs. "It's ok Joey, Mommy's in heaven have a grand time."
Fail.
You know, I think you could be the poster child as to why we should legalize retroactive abortions. :)
Atheist, religion has nothing to do with it. Religion is not a risk factor for crime. Poverty, single parenting and drugs are. I would bet that most of these children are not getting the tools they need from their parents to blossom into good citizens (environment actually affects neurological development). And it might be that their parents are overwhelmed or neglected themselves. It's a vicious cycle.
You want documentation... there's plenty of good stuff out there. Parents who suffer raise children who suffer. For a simple example, review Harry Harlow's attachment experiment.
It certainly is a vicious cycle. All I'm suggesting is that our school system may help by focusing on critical thinking, logic, and empathy skills. I'm not suggesting a panache (that's Big Faith's domain/tactic).
I brought up faith because the story with Brian Williams interviews a priest talking about beauty "saving them." That's just ridiculous and needs to be called out as such. I've done that. Faith isn't the solution here.
It's ok to put faith under the microscope and ridicule it. It's not a crime to do so. And I don't think it's a stretch at ALL to take notice of the fact that per capita, free-thinkers make up the smallest percentage of those in jail. People of faith, Christians in the US, make up the highest percentage of criminals behind bars.
I am not making the correlation that faith is pathway to crime (though it can be). I am making the observation that there are extremely few freethinkers in jail. Freethinkers value reason, empathy and critical thinking. Let's get some of that to our youngest citizens.
Just because the elderly are religious doesn't mean the younger generation that values street cred and North Face jackets does.
Begin the airlift of Jesse Jackson!
Wait, he doesn't care.
Begin the thawing of Bill Cosby!
For ye have the poor always with you....run them out and stop the handouts and make them work! Charge a hefty tax for living in the city and that will force the issue. Or borrow a few hundred billion from China and hand it out using the Salvation Army in Santa suits on the corner.
You didn't get it. There are NO jobs for those people. They all went to China, India, Vietnam, Pakistan. Our Greedy business'es have sent all the jobs to our enemys. And as the government keeps bringing in MORE Unskilled immigrants into this country and putting them right on welfare things are going to get worse.
As a Campbell's Soup allumni, its world headquarters are alive and well in Camden. A couple of years ago, it expanded and created many jobs for residents. It is a huge contributor to local charities. Campbells stuck around while many left, and while admittedly, it gets some tax incentives, it has enough resurces as a 7 billion co to go elsewhere.
Recruiting skilled HQ employees is tough, no one wants to live there, so most of the well paid ones live in Philadelphia and commute in.
Bash business all you want, but Campbells has been loyal to Camden
Is anyone shocked or surprised by this? Thirty years ago our leadership decided to punk out on the citizens by providing incentives for corporations to move our manufacturing to Mexico and China.
China was starving and looking to expand their country outward. Mexico was starving and near active revolt. Our fearess leaders decided that giving our jobs to those two countries was easier than fighting or protecting our borders. Do you not remember the pols and academicians talking about the "transition to a service-based economy? Do you not remember the discussions of the wonders of a global economy?
How can Camden and Detroit come as a surprise? How many cities can go barkrupt? (How many ya got?) Watch for this spread.
The only way this will get resolved is for "fearless" leadership to open the floodgates to bring American Manufacturing back to America. Tax holidays for corporate earnings returned to the US, incentives for producing on-shore. There are serious risks involved - and we know that our leadership is seriously risk-adverse.
We're screwed.
While in college, I worked at a freight company at night loading and unloading trucks. One night a box that was to be delivered to a major sporting goods shoe retailer opened and we were nosey and looked at the invoice. The most expensive pair of shoes in the box was under 10.00 dollars with the majority under 2.00 The same shoes that were 75.00 to 175.00 in their store! I wonder what the importer paid for them at the factory??? You can do the math all day and there is no way workers here can do that and support the high markup of retailers. It is slave labour...
Atheist-Panache? I hope you meant panacea. I think you are one of those types that like to use a lot of "big" words and sloppy punctuation, hoping no one will call you out, dolt.
Good catch Lance.
I find it most curious that "athiest" has nothing to say except to condemn religion. If your not religious, fine move on, but don't disparage people that are having a very hard time and lean on their "god" to help them make it through the day. It's a hell of a lot better than using drugs to get through the day. Apparently they have enough of that problem. I know many people who's churchs' have paid they utilities and helped them with food. Perhaps you could hand out some used clothing and show them what wonderful, giving people athiest's are. Peace to you brother/sister. I for one will pray for the people of Camden since I am half way across the country from them.
My disagreement with the crux of your defense (religion is ok for those who "need" it, and religion does good stuff) is a very deep disagreement.
I think you are woefully mistaken and represent (perhaps unintentionally I'll grant you) a great poison and evil being presented to our youth: the abandoment of their innate logic and reasoning for a faulty evaluative tool: faith.
We need to set our youngest citizens up for success: reason, critical thinking is a good way to do this. Can we just try it?
Atheist 6939529, since when does religion abandon innate logic and reason? Some religions may, but all? Hardly. Consider Thomas Aquinas, CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, and others.
Arguments can go any which way, but dismissing religion with a claim that abandons innate logic and reasoning is ---well, quite atheist (insert Picard meme here).
Enjoying your posts, otherwise. They are entertaining.
benedict,
One can employ logic within a tautology like a faith-based religion if certain starting axioms are accepted. That does not mean the system itself is reasonable or rational. Surely you understand that.
Arguments can go any which way, correct. But not reasonable arguments. Reasonable arguments conform to well know rules of logic. Have you not taken formal logic classes? There is no room for faith in logic. Logic is corrosive to faith.
Aquinas was a strong supporter of slavery. This is understandable since Jesus was cool with it and of course Yahweh was in love with it! Nothing about slavery is moral and there are no reasonable arguments known that would compel freethinkers to think otherwise.
Religion is little more than popularized delusional wealth concentration.
Tax free!
Atheist is taking you to school, people. Calm down and pay attention.
Atheist:
You have every right to question religion and/or people of faith. I myself have a very strong faith in God, but I understand your right to not believe the way I believe. I just don't quite understand your argument here in this forum for this story. First of all, the story didn't mention religion, churches, faith, etc... in any way shape or form. And secondly, if the people of Camden claim to be Christians, then the ones doing all the murdering, thieving, and having illegitimate children are breaking multiple commandments and I would sincerely doubt any true faith among those people. In fact, if all the people of Camden were PRACTICING Christians, they would not be in this situation.
Well said. I totally agree, Rebecca. Thanks for the posting!!
Rebecca,
I am proposing that critical thinking, logic and empathy be formally taught to children at the earliest grades as a differnt way to combat another generation being lost to the false promises and false hope of faith.
Considering free thinkers represent the smallest percentage of US criminals in jail (even when adjusted per capita of course) wouldn't you agree that perhaps there is something to be learned from the virtues of free thought?
Rebecca -
I am proposing that we free the next generation from the false promises and false hope of "freebies" and "progressive" thought that is being taught in our schools.
Some cannot fathom that the mind, the spirit and the body can co-exist in harmony; that one can be logical, educated, scientific and spiritual at the same time.
Athiest,
Where is the data to support "Considering free thinkers represent the smallest percentage of US criminals in jail"? My experience indicate to me those in jail are largely "free thinkers" = defining their own rules, subject only to their own authority, and "rediscovering the wheel" on what is right and what is wrong, clearly presented thousands of years ago on two stone tablets.
Maran, the 1997 US Federal Prison Bureau is my source that demonstrates atheists make up the smallest demographic classified under religion (less than a percentage) while Christians make up nearly 90% of prisoners being kept away from society. This is adjusted per capita.
There is an article out today I hear, I haven't read it yet, that suggests that faith is a actually a crime enabling tool because people of faith have more avenues to "justify" their crimes using holy books, etc. But I can't vouch for it, I haven't read it yet. But anyway, the prison stat source is legitimate and well known to atheists. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself. :)
Kind of a chicken and egg question.
Did the city get poor because the businesses left, and the middle class followed, or did the majority voting for corrupt politicians promising government services and assistance, drive the businesses and taxpaying middle class out.
I think the citizens of Camden, Detroit, and similar places created their own mess. Wherever you have the mentality of entitlement to government support, you see a society in decline.
The Camden Shipyard shut down and there was a riot in the 60's when the police beat up a Puerto Rican guy. That is what caused the business to leave.
I'm one who favors the bulldozer approach to decaying urban centers. Flatten entire blocks. Flatten entire sections if necessary. If you wake up in the morning looking at urban decay, and go to bed looking at urban decay, and it's most of your every waking moment, you can hardly know anything but such visual despair. There is the concept of nothingness to inspire the creative process. Certainly the Campbell's Soup factory was flat land before it started. Certainly the river banks were empty before the shipyards started. Certainly even the decaying buildings started from flat land. What Camden needs is imagination and creativity, not welfare to sustain the blight which exists. If Camden were flattened, someone from across the river with a dream could say, "Over there is our hope". Tear down the decaying buildings, and plant some wild flowers, shrubs, and grasses, and office complexes and job opportunity will arise in the future.
Not sure your idea would necessarily work, but I haven't seen any better suggestions.
Thanks.
and if Camden were flattened where would the dregs of society living in Camden go? It would seem to me that keeping Camden and isolating it might be good for the rest of the country. If one wants to get out bad enough they will find a way.
"Flattening" an existing city? Really? Do you know how large the City of Camden is? This simple-minded approach might be easy to imagine, but impossible to implement. Look at Atlantic City and Newark, NJ for the aftereffects of demolishing blocks of "decaying" buildings and neighborhoods - they are flattened still to this day, 20 years later - vacant lots replete with windstrewn trash and abandoned cars. The answer is not about "flattening" , rather it is to unshackle private development, and let the private sector do what it does best. Not government money, incentivized private money. Eliminate the corrupt Camden City government in entirety, free the local architects and urban planners who are familiar with the problems of the city to design the solutions and direct the redevelopment that leads to a revitalized and reconstructed built environment to attract employers, and hence supports a satisfactory quality of life for prospective employees and... voila, you have a revitalized neighborhood, then another, then another. Eventually, you get a thriving city where pride of ownership replaces desperation, positive identity development trumps ambivalence, education and social awareness overwhelms conflict and crime. It can happen. It will take huge private investment and installation of a pro-business city government, but it can be done.
why?....large minority population......period.
You disgrace Einstein by using his photo. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics and over-crowded cities.
The uncomfortable truth in room...what's wrong with Camden is the same thing that's wrong with Detroit, Newark, Haiti, and most of Africa. The Bell Curve.
Hmmm...is that the same Bell Curve that states that because I'm black, I should not be a member of Mensa, or hold a masters degree in computer science, or be a former Naval Aviator? Is that the same Bell Curve that states that my black father could not possibly have practiced surgery for 52 years? Is that the same Bell Curve that states that my black grandfather could not have possibly graduated from medical school in 1917 and practiced ear, nose and throat surgery until is death in 1958?
Nissan - well put.
Absolutely not. Individuals are always able to achieve great things and skin color shouldn't play a role. However, collectively, there are problems when a race of people attack their own "for acting white" when they attempt to achieve that greatness.
We are not talking about an individual. I am sure Camden has produced it's share of doctors, lawyers, and mensa members. But most of those folks, I'm willing to guess, avoided and escaped the collective.
Should we just pour more money down a rathole and give people incentives to have more children out of wedlock? This poverty appears to be systemic, and appears to be highly indicative of all black populations. What say you?
Yes it does but not because they are black but because they did not have the same opportunities that whites in general had. When poverty is all a group of people ever see, when they are not afforded the same educational opportunities then Camden is what you will get and we will lose generations to a vile way of life.
I also agree that liberalism has not helped them but social conservatives also have a part to play in the mess.
Slavery did not technically end until 1940s and it has been a very slow climb out of the hole for this minority of people.
The more towns that fall, the more this nation comes to civil unrest. It takes time but will come about. We push button Americans think in the short term, never long term. Every war takes time to fester. Our government is well aware of the tragedies but is hopeless to do anything about it. This nation's national guard had better be ready and or willing to die for the 1%.
From the article "the city a victim of industrial forces that shaped the 20th century and left residents stranded". Victim(s)? Yeah, that explains all the gang-banging and murders. It's the industries fault!!! They moved out and there is nothing else to do but steal, rape, and murder people. Victims of industry leaving!!!
Sorry to say but anytime anywhere in this country when African Americans and/or Hispanics are the majority several things happen. 1. Whites leaves taking with them money,jobs, education, stability. 2. Crime, drugs, gangs move in. 3. Poverty and hopeless attitudes set in. Look around East St. Louis, Gary Ind, Detroit, Flint, Memphis, New Orleans etc... on and on its the same story.
It is sad that there are some very dumb people that believe this is racial.
Ok show me a prosperous, safe, vibrant, city that is majority AA?
Baldwin Hills, CA
Now show me that you aren't completely stupid.
OK that is a neighborhood not a city- lots celebrities - but I will give you that ONE- I guess I could name 100 or so majority AA - cities, towns, neighborhoods etc..that lag- way behind. Statistically speaking those areas of black prosperity are rare, God knows it would be better for everyone if there were more. Remember not so far from you there are plenty of Bloods and Crips-- at last count LA county had 70,000 active gang members
You must be very young because you don't seem to grasp the race situation in this country. In the early part of the 20th century, despite Jim Crow, Black families were recovering from slavery and moved to the cities where industry was taking off. Because of Jim Crow these people never moved up. They were low level workers for decades. When industry left most of the Blacks couldn't afford to move with them. Now they're stuck in these dying cities. The few who do leave "integrate" into the surrounding suburbs, because America is a big melting pot and forming a racially exclusive neighborhood is wrong, right?
I am 53 and from South Carolina - I have firm grasp of the race "situation" in this country, thank you.
I understand a lot of what you say and agree with most of it but remain deeply troubled by how the Civil Rights Act has been squandered by blacks abusing blacks. I hate to see exploitation of blacks by others within the black community. It is 50 years now and the plight and character of so many blacks seems to be worse...and troubles me deeply. My high school was have black and half Jewish. I great cultural learning experience. Many of the blacks had self-pride and performed well in the academic environment. Unfortunately, this was not the experience of my children in their high schools thirty years later. Civil Rights were long overdue but I sense it was frittered away. Sorry.
I'm from CA
Baldwin Hills is not a good neighborhood. It has a huge gang problem.
When I drove through there I noticed one thing that was really prominent: Garbage. Lining the streets with garbage. I saw a lot of able-bodied men, women, boys and girls standing around on corners, glancing at me as if I was the problem. How about this? Clean up your neighborhood, motivate yourselves. You have soiled your nest and you blame the rest of the world for doing it. NJ has tried to revitalize the waterfront but a couple blocks in...filth.
No one wants to admit it but this problem is the result of American culture. We glorify violence and materialism. Our movies, music, and television are all about killing enemies and enjoying opulent lifestyles. We polarize ourselves in everything we do religion, politics, sports, sexuality, even entertainment. It always has to be an "us vs them" mentality. The idea of accepting someone who is different has been almost all but forgotten.
When you apply this to the poorest and most disadvantaged of us we get a situation like Camden. You know that when you say you're from Camden you will be judged as poor, unintelligent, violent, and disadvantaged before you say another word. You will not be accepted by the "rest" of the world so why participate? $400 becomes a worthy sum to take a life for. Drugs make you feel better. Sex means love. Gang acceptance means love. Spending your last dime on clothes, cars, jewelry, wheels, makes others think you're successful and that means respect.
Everybody wants to be loved and respected. For many of the people in Camden the old ways of having a successful life seem much further away than the "Scarface" way. We have created a society where our poorest believe they are closer to being cocaine dealers than doctors. We are all at fault because it is our culture that is creating this.
I don't disagree, but to point to any one cause is simplistic to the point of being meaningless.
How many cities do blacks get to destroy, before we say something? They destroyed Detroit, Camden, E. ST. Louis, St. Louis . I could go on and on. If they come near where you live run an fast as you can. They have destroyed every neighborhood that have moved in to.
Camden's problem is that the jobs have left to countries where manufacturers can take advantage of child and slave labor. Anyone who thinks poor people collecting assistance is what destroyed the economy is an idiot. Food stamps are the number one, best way to stimulate the economy, best bang for the buck. A strong middle class with buying power is essential to a heathy national economy and the manufacturers could not care less about the economy of their own country or the poor countries where they set up shop to use and abuse workers. All they care about is their own bottom line and will destroy human lives as much as they can get away with to improve it. In a word, greed is the only problem this world has. All problems can be traced back to greed.
Leroy -
The philanthropic society you founded is called what?
Like it or not, busniesses are not formed to benefit the public. Do you have a retirement plan of any kind? If it loses money year by year are you OK with that? Greedy??
Cry me a river...
Let me hold a fiver. . .
There should be a thumbs down button for all the willfully ignorant pseudo Republicans that posted on this story. If you think it can't happen to you, you are delusional also.
Choose the best answer.
What is Camdens' problem???
1. Angry white men are out killing people with their assualt rifles and the NRA approves
2. Mobs of racist white people with guns are killing people in Camden and the NRA approves
3. Camden has a great school system
4. These are typicial Obama voters, spoiled liberals who expect everything handed to them even when times are good, they voted for their messiah in the WH and now are reaping those rewards
Camden has an excellent education system. The teachers are so dedicated that if a student cannot meet the minimum requirements to pass, they will change answers on the test to "help" them.
You know the students of Camden are getting all the information they need to survive in this world when the largest high school serving 99.99% minority students is named after a president who was a proud member of the KKK.
Woodrow Wilson was in the KKK? How is that possible, he was a Democrat!
Want to see a great uptick in school performance? Make the receipt of government assistance dependent on having your children maintain a "C" GPA.
WHY the fork is this story suddenly FRONT PAGE HEADLINES ? camden yards has been a piece of @!$%#e town for the past 40-50 years and most of its inhabitants represent the future if you ask me.
We used to call ALL of new jersey " the industrial armpit of the nation" and of course true to the typical SALES nature of jews (who mostly live in nj) they call it the GARDEN state. NOTHING is furthur from the truth.
AGAIN. WHY NOW ? WHY today on the news ? Did somebody at msnbc get a pohone call to PLASTER this morning's headlines with crap about camden ? WHY ?
Your future is getting closer folks. Keep producing selfish narcissitic kids who are half black, half latino and half asian and CAMDEN will be what you get. No amount of zinist STOKING will change that.
The Mafia was destroying American cities long before blacks, Latinos and half Asians were in the spot light but we seemed to have nixed that in the bud so why can't we do so with this problem.